Arandur wrote:> Was it not the Nestorians that placed great emphasis on her, as well? Or am I getting my gnostic groups mixed up again?

Yes, but we pretty much all put emphasis on her. The big difference here, as it applies to standard Catholicism and damned near all Gnostic sects, is that for us, she’s more conceptual than an actual person (and you can say the same for Christ, as well). Not really that whole “divine female” thing that came out of the DaVinci code, but as the embodiement as Wisdom. We’ll often say “Sophia” instead of “Mary,” but I don’t get my panties in a twist over it, and just say “Mary.”
In fact, you might be surprised at how many Gnostics pray the standard Marian Rosary- I do, though you and I might disagree over the meaning. There is a Hermetic Rosary (still quite Marian, in a sense) that a lot of Gnostics use, but I find it too messy.

Delighted to hear that you pray it! (I actually just got finished praying it a few minutes ago) Whatever the limitations of our human understanding, I believe she and her son accept with favor the intent of the devotion.

Hmm, reading over the past post…been absentee a few days, my-B :))) As for Obama don’t really wanna go there, there’s a lot of things I don’t agree with in him, nonetheless of I could I would vote for him. My reason why is kinda stupid and I’m not 18 yet so whatevas. Doesn’t matter I guess.

As for the marian prayers I got a lot to say about those…

1. Why do Catholics give so much accolade to Mary to the point where you pray to her? Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other Gods before me.” Exodus 20:5 “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God.” Heavenly father is the only God we should pray to because he is the only God. The virgin mary is not a God nor are any of the other so-called “saints” that catholics worship. Exodus 20:4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth” Note how it mentions things that are in heaven also. Or in other words even if these “saints” are in heaven you shouldn’t pray to them or worship them. Catholics especially do this. And as a side comment I’de like to add that I think Catholicism as a faith is just the epitome of hypocrisy

2And who even made these people saints???

3.These marian prayers and psalms are just repetitious phrases. Not saying that I don’t like what they say, the words are meaningful and powerful. But it is clearly stated in Matthew 6:7 “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.” God is a person like us, only in a much higher glorified state of mind and physically as well. But He feels and He listens and most importantly He answers. Do you really think God likes hearing the same thing from you every single day? Do you have a son Arandur? For the sake of argument lets say you do. And as a typical parent you always ask your kid “How was school?” and what do we always say “fine.” What did you learn.” “I dont know?” The conversation gets pretty old fast doesn’t it. The same is with our heavenly father. Although he knows all things past, present, and those that are to come he still wants to hear from his children. How they are, what they need, what their struggling with, and what gives them joy. I don’t believe in repetitious prayer. A prayer with our heavenly father should be a conversation, cause that’s what you’re doing, your talking to him. It’s a dialogue not a monologue.

4.What exactly is the diffrence between a prayer and a psalm?

5.Why do gonostics call Mary, Sophia?

6.Have a nice day :)))

let me add my two cents

27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. (Or in other words, Blessed be Mary) 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Until you can hear the word of God, AND keep it (no one is perfect so your mission will never end, your only job is to keep trying), then you should stop praying to mary, and continue praying to your Heavenly Father. If you are sick, who do you go to? the doctor, or the doctor’s mom?

why some people call maria, Sophia? no clue… my name is chris, or joseph? no entender

allow me to share a selection of the book of mormon that talks about our day, the last days… 3 For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord’s; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord’s; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord— 4 And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance. 5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men; 6 Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work. 7 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us. 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. 9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

Sound familiar?

In a little less than a week I hope to have time to respond to your posts and clear up misunderstandings, LDSGal and Ellis. Thanks for your interest.

LDSGal, so we can get it all out into the open and I can address it when I have time, would you mind explaining further re: bq.And as a side comment I’de like to add that I think Catholicism as a faith is just the epitome of hypocrisy-?

In the meantime, I invite you to check out CatholicVote.com’s Prayer section and, if you otherwise agree with the intentions, substitute God the Father or the Mormon god of your choice ( sorry, couldn’t resist a little return dig :D ) as the addressee.

Also, if you have the time and interest before I get a chance to delve into the topic here, I invite you to go to www.catholic.com and use the search engine, Catholic Answers Tracts, Forum, or encyclopedia (linked to NewAdvent.org) to find many answers to your questions.

Hahaha, that was a good one Arandur. Anywhoo, explaining further on why I think catholics are hypocrits and kina silly is because they take everything in the Bible too literally or not literal at all.

1. Baptism. (matthew 3:16) You guys 1st of all babtize babies, which is retarted cause what sin does a new born have? Their innocent.2.Christ was baptized as an example of the way it should be done, not for his own health or for any sins because he has none. Yet catholics don’t take any of the information into there brain cause they think that sprinkling some water on a babies head is baptism….no. Christ fully submerged his body into the water and that’s how it ought to be done.

2.Prayers. (matthew 6:9-13) In this case you guys took the sense too literally. Once again, Christ was giving an example & even gave a little disclaimer after that vain repetitions are not heard from God.

3.Idolitry.(matthew 20:3-5) No graven image or likeness,no other Gods before our Heavenly father. Yet catholics worships saints like they are Gods.They have the little figurines all over there homes and the little candles with them on it. I’ve even seen people have a seperate little house on there front porch with a “Saint” in it. Not even Christ. And I really feel like you guys belittle he who was most important which is Jesus Christ and God the father.

well, these are the only ones I can think of now. I’m really tired. Today was a HUGE day…time for a cat nap :)))

Okay, I’ll help you with a few more direct links until I have time to make a proper reply. These provide a little bit of the basis for Catholic belief:

Saints: The basic point here is that the Church doesn’t teach worship of saints; we honor them as heroes of the faith and ask them to pray for us, much like you’d ask some admired friend, family member, or church member to pray for you here on earth.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9903frs.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_…
(Do a search on “saints” with that site’s search engine)

Mary: The basic point here is that, as the NT says, Mary is the most blessed of all women of all time. She is the greatest hero(ine) among the saints, essentially, since she was given and made for the singular honor of bearing Christ; she is the Ark of the New Covenant. Furthermore, just as Jesus fulfills the role of a Davidic King, Mary fulfills the role of the Queen Mother, having that title and place in heaven. This role is ancient and was a special position of advocacy for the people before their king.
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea3.asp

Baptism: Understanding Original Sin is very important to understanding Baptism, particularly of infants. It helps also to understand the nature and disposition of the child’s soul, touched upon by Christ when he told us to become like little children, and for adults to not prevent the children from coming to him (which they do naturally). The form and manner of Baptism is something you take too literally, as it was never proscribed in that manner. Different dispensations for the various sacraments and acts of devotion often have practical purposes, such as availability of water, physical condition, and sanitation. While sacraments are not just symbols, the manner in which they are convoked is often primarily symbolic.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0201frs.asp
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0012sbs.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/baptism_immersi…
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9306frs.asp
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea5.asp

Vain Repetition: The references are to the public practice of wailing “Lord, Lord!” as a means of showing public piety, as was unfortunately commonplace at the time, and to pagan babbling to prove the same. It was against vain repetition. Jesus himself prays repetitively; it is also practiced admirably in the OT, as well as simple recitation of Scripture and performance of rituals. Are your blessings over your communion bread and water/grape juice wrong?
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0405sbs.asp
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0603fea2.asp
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0410qq.asp (farther down on page)

Graven Images: This was in reference to items created (people would make for themselves idols/”gods”) and worshipped in and of themselves as if they were gods, the source of power and veneration. Are your depictions of Christ in art graven images? Depictions of any things you hold sacred in your church history? Is a photo that reminds you of your family, particular departed loved ones, an evil?
http://www.catholic.com/library/do_catholics_wo…

I haven’t reviewed all of these again; there’s a depth of information on that site too great for me to keep up with. I can provide others, but it’s easier to go to one that’s fairly comprehensive in terms of answering most questions quickly.

Have a good weekend! :)

Hope everyone had a Happy Halloween! I’ll respond to you (arandur) asap :)))

Satolkin wrote:
>Ooo- Ooo! Will the new Christmas thread be something I can argue with?

OK, I’m finally here. Sorry guys, I am gravely ill. I am able to use the computer now again more today. I am needing to rest and sleep a lot lately and for the next few days too. Doctor’s orders.

I will be reading your comments below Dave’s remarks here over the next little while and can respond better. I’ll try to reply like this so you can understand who I’m talking to more readily.

Sounds like you should start the Christmas thread pretty soon, Gal! I love you, honey.

Aran, good to see you, my friend, of course, you, too Satol! Love to all of you

Feel better :))) we’ll pray for you!

Arandur, you say you honor the saints as hero’s. I think theres nothing wrong with that, but to pray is, that would be like me praying to the United States Marines & Joan of Arc cause they’re my hero.

The baptism thing makes sense, I could see why yall do that, but I still think that Christ gave the example, if you follow everything else in the bible to the T like the Lords prayer why not something as simple and important as baptism? What you said about bapitsm for infants only supports what I said. Children are innocent and will naturally follow the savior, Christ himself said to humble yourself as a little child for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs. So what would be the point of cleansing something that is so innocent and the so pure, the closest thing to Christ here on earth?

When He spoke of vain repetition it was about vain repetition in prayer, not in rituals or customs. A little F&F (fun-fact) is that mormons don’t take grape juice, we take water :)))

About the graven images no ofcourse the art & stuff we have are not Graven images, but 1st of all it’s christ not any other God. He said ye shall have no other Gods before ME. Having a picture of him is not having a God before him.2nd of all you don’t pray to pictures of your family, but catholics pray to these saints. And that is a form of idolitry, idolitry isnt just confined to praying to a statue. It can also be being over obssesive with material things like your car or having a nice house or being money obsessed. Something interesting I found was in that scripture in Matt.6:24 taht says you cannot serve God and Mammon, under the cross-refrence it takes you to the Topical Buide to Idolitry and treasures…

:)))

LdsGal202 wrote:
>Feel better :))) we’ll pray for you!

Thank you, Gal. And, thank all of you! I pray that you are (praying for me). lol, yes, but with much love, Ken

Sorry to hear that, Koo! I’ll pray you get better soon, as well. I hope it’s nothing too serious or long term…

LDSGal, prayer is communication. The saints are alive, in heaven. They have roles and responsibilities, holy work to do, which includes continuing to pray and minister; per Revelation they offer our prayers to the Father. God is not so jealous and narcissistic that He wants all attention on Himself alone and do all the work Himself alone, with no place for His children. No, He is a wise and generous King and Father, who delegates tasks and lets His faithful servants share in His work and in His glory. Thus the saints, and our communion with them.

I agree that symbolically baptism by immersion is preferable. It is often still done, though it is easiest to do so for infants. Among adults, since we prefer that baptism is performed in community as part of the Divine Liturgy, it is also much more practical to avoid complete immersion. Since the Christ’s Body the Church, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, very early on set the acceptable norms of baptism (Tradition;remember, Christ never wrote a word down; the soul of Truth and its communication through the Church is oral and bound in Tradition, through the Spirit). Very little Scriptural formula was set, and it did not specifically outline immersion as the only allowable form. You choose to follow the manner of Christ’s baptism as closely as you wish (though if you were truly literal and exact, it ought to be in a flowing river, or even in the Jordan itself; the literal extension of his example is an arbitrary and artificial distinction).

As for baptism of infants, again, this gets back to Original Sin. Simply put, we are generated in the Fallen State, bearing the mark of Adam’s sin. Christ is the New Adam. Baptism initiates us into HIS generation—it is our rebirth, we are Born Again, not as the children of Satan but as children of God.

Again, vain repetition. If you have time to follow the links, they explore these issues deeper and give Scriptural references. Christ himself employed repetition, notably in the Garden and the many times he illustrated points with the “thrice holies” and the “amens.” When you communicate with loved ones, do you not often use the same greetings, share in fondly repeating traditions or stories, songs or poems? Prayers share much of this communion and add a deliberate element of meditation that brings us closer in mind to God. Prayers are like saying “I love you,” and that never gets old.

So your objection as far as graven images is not the images themselves. It’s that you think that Catholics worship images in and of themselves, or placing more importance on them than on God. I agree that would be idolatrous, but I don’t know any Catholics that do that. Pictures, symbols, statues, whatever, serve to remind the faulty human mind of things, help focus the heart and mind, and celebrate the person, event, or symbol in art. The saints all point to God, for it is only their service to Him that makes them heroes. We recognize this when we pray, and those Catholics that have prayer cards for saints or statuettes and so forth usually have some special bond with that saint (like with an ancestor that you admire and have been given the name of, or of a friend or role model) and use the physical symbol as a reminder of the spiritual life and existence of the saint, since their physical presence is obviously absent. They are aids for our limited human capacities and the limitation of our earthly existence.

okay, you explained things better this time. It makes sense, still don’t agree with it exactly but I get it now. Thanks so much Arandur! :)))

EDIT: I was reading this book just now called “How to work with angels” it’s pretty intresting, but that’s besides the point. In the book it talked about prayer being structured like the hail marys & etc. or unstructured in which you speak the deepest longing of your soul. And it was like an epiphany to me, about this whole thing about vain repetition. It goes on to say that some jewish mystics believe that repeating prayers is the true meaning or prayer “without ceasing” as it says in 1Thess. 5:17 And I was just awed by this, cause I have never looked at it in that perspective. And now I see it in a bit of a diffrent way. Structured prayer is a good thing, but it’s also important to have unstructured prayer & to actually have a conversation with your Heavenly Father :))) once again thanks Arandur for the explenation

Glad I could help!

I will admit that far too many Catholics are unfamiliar or uncomfortable with unstructured prayer. This is a poverty that the Church has been working to correct in many ways. However, so many structured prayers are so wonderful that many Catholics choose them in preference to others, because through them we focus our hearts and minds on many of the most poignant things, and because with them we can pray in vast community very easily. There is something wonderful about praying together with both immediate companions and the millions of other Catholics we know are praying the same prayer—even at the same times, during prayer campaigns. Further, these prayers have helped many Catholics pray much more deeply through meditative prayer. The Rosary in particular has been wonderful for me in this; it is structured so that the decades of “Hail Mary’s” are intended primarily as time measures, during which we meditate on the great Joyful, Sorrowful, Luminous, and Glorious mysteries of Christ’s life and ministry. These sorts of prayer are a rich, beautiful, and powerful tradition that I hope you look into more and find helpful in your own relationship with God.

LdsGal202 wrote:> Structured prayer is a good thing, but it’s also important to have unstructured prayer & to actually have a conversation with your Heavenly Father :))) once again thanks Arandur for the explenation

Right. Constantly, in fact. Prayer is (from a Gnostic perspective) a constant communication with G-d. The structured is important, but it is equally important (if not more so) to try to keep that “contemplative” feeling all the time. It’s more about realization of the presence of G-d than begging him for favors.

Man. I’m glad you guys worked out your differences. I was feeling like I was going to be put in the incredibly weird position of defending Catholicism. Which I’ll do, but…it’d just be strange.
We call Mary “Sophia,” BTW, because our view of her is somewhat different, and based Kabbalistically on the Sephirah Binah. Sort of the universal Mother, in a sense. Translated, Sophia means “wisdom.”

Hope you’re doing better, Koo.

I looked that up,sephirah binah, found this site…pretty intresting :)))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephirah

LdsGal202 wrote:>I looked that up,sephirah binah, found this site…pretty intresting :))) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephirah

Not bad, Gal. Kabbalah, however, is quite complicated, and wiki really doesn’t do it justice. Lemme see if I can find something a little more usable.

Well, the name no longer fits this topic. No quiet here! lol. Just stopping in to say hello. I’m recovering…slowly. I’ll keep youse guys advised, OK? Have fun, post some sh*t in some of the other topics, too. We can all hold multiple conversations while we are here. At least we used to be able to…There’s a whole new monthly thread for Nov. and everything! Auntie Kookoo is a good host. Love you all, Ken

Visit the new thread on Our Upcoming Holidays!!! :D

Holidays, plural? Were you going to post on ones beyond Christmas? :)

I may not have gotten back to you on a couple of earlier questions.

2And who even made these people saints???

The canonization process has varied through the years, gradually becoming more rigorous. It was instated, as I mentioned, to honor heroes of the faith (usually martyrs, particularly early on) and to draw strength through their example and through the communion of saints. Technically, we use the term “saint” just as you do, as a reference to all baptized Christians. We denote the capital “S” as a title of honor. Many saints, particularly early in history, were recognized more locally in various dioceses (bishoprics). They gradually became more universally known, and to help identify them (among other things), they were often tied to specific roles based upon something distinguishing in their lives. The canonization process became more rigorous partly because of this wider acknowledgment, and partly to avoid the possible scandal of having someone honored officially as a Saint who had some real black marks in the final parts of their lives. (I say “final” because many Saints had quite sinful early lives, but reformed through the transforming power of Christ.) You see, to be a part of the proper Communion of Saints (those on earth and those who died in God’s grace), they would need to be destined for heaven. God is the judge of that, and so the Church merely does the best it can to read the signs of God’s judgment (hence the required attribution of at least 3 miracles to the Saint).

4.What exactly is the diffrence between a prayer and a psalm?

Catholics typically only refer to the official Psalms from Scripture as psalms. I believe it has a wider application, though, as poetic prayer usually meant for song, and especially when sung accompanied by a harp. All psalms are prayers, but not all prayers are psalms.