I Believe in Preterism replied by PreteristView @ Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:12:02 -0000

PreteristView — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:12:02 -0000

HI…Sorry, I have been really busy.

When Christ told His disciples that He would be coming on the clouds, that is ethereal language, the same language was used in the Old Testament signifying God’s wrath or judgment.

When He explains to His disciples that when people say go here or there, do not believe. He told them the manner of His return. “On the clouds”.

He speaks of how establishing His Kingdom is not a physical kingdom but a Heavenly Kingdom, one that exists within the hearts of believers.

If the Kingdom is Spiritual, then His return and reign was Spiritual as well. I am sorry I don’t have more time now to give all the Scripture references, but I will as soon as I have more time. I just wanted to touch base and let you know that I wasn’t avoiding the question.

I Believe in Preterism replied by PreteristView @ Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:07:04 -0000

PreteristView — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:07:04 -0000

I am getting really busy, so I won’t be back as often, but I do want to discuss the topic to anyone that is interested.

I Believe in Preterism replied by PreteristView @ Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:05:30 -0000

PreteristView — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:05:30 -0000

LdsGal,

Christ explained to His disciples that His return would be a “spiritual” one. His return in Judgment occurred in 70 A.D. at the destruction of the Herodian temple.

I Believe in Preterism replied by PreteristView @ Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:02:17 -0000

PreteristView — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:02:17 -0000

That would pertain to His birth, life, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, and return.

FAVORITE IMAGE replied by PreteristView @ Sun, 06 Jan 2008 20:42:47 -0000

PreteristView — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 20:42:47 -0000

I wish I would have known about this site sooner…I could have had more time and creative contemplation before entering. Two of my three were accepted.

There are some really good ones, even though they don’t meet the specific criteria of the contest rules. Nice talent on this board. I am looking forward to seeing the results. The prizes are awesome. I hope and pray that they go to someone that really needs them, and can be a blessing to their lives.

Catholicism replied by PreteristView @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:52:59 -0000

PreteristView — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:52:59 -0000

Ratboy,

It always seems that women are given the complete responsibility…Thanks for the shift of responsibility.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:50:57 -0000

PreteristView — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:50:57 -0000

emptycalm wrote:
>> <i>ratboy wrote:</i>
>>Can’t we save the lives of fetuses and help them to become good Hindus,Moslems,Buddists etc…?

No way dude. Other religions are terrorists or wrong.

coolll….wish I figured this feature out before.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:36:42 -0000

PreteristView — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:36:42 -0000

No problem, Arandur. I am not condoning abortion, but at the same time I know GOD is in control. It is not what we try to manage, and control in others – but our Faith in GOD. I am not stating that we do not act upon our convictions where we have authority, like voting for legislation or sharing what Scripture states about the nature of GOD and HIS Will for us, only that it is not done in judgment and in condemnation but through the Love of Christ.

If your heart is telling you that abortion is wrong and it should be illegal, if you know it wrong and against GOD, that is fine, too – both are righteous discernments, and yet our concern should be only for saving the lost with the LOVE OF CHRIST. The Love of Christ gets lost in the adamant and vehement call for the severity of the law.

If you are wanting for it to be illegal to keep people from sinning against God, we are selves cannot even be sinless.

And if you are concerned for the lives of the unborn, they are in the hands of God.

Your passion for obeying God is a gift, and even in the most horrendous of times, God still says, “Be still and know that I AM GOD.” Be still doesn’t always mean that we don’t act, but that we are not overcome in our hearts by the wickedness of this world.

That is all that I was trying to convey. I think we spend so much time on the don’ts we don’t emphasize to the dos. We are saying to people to choose life, now we need to show them the “LIFE” so that they may cope.

Catholicism replied by PreteristView @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:07:25 -0000

PreteristView — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:07:25 -0000

I would find the Catholic Church’s abhorrence of artificial birth-control more acceptable if a man and a woman did not have billions/millions of sperm cells, and ovum. Or even if it only applied to the unwed promiscuous, but to the married whom want to be responsible in their childrearing and to use wisdom? Are we to believe that GOD cannot accept a means of contraception outside of the realm of primitive methods?

A woman doesn’t even have the capacity to birth all of the ova that her ovaries contain, and will not even dispense all the ovum they contain in her life time. A man’s sperm is regenerative. Producing and reproducing more sperm throughout his reproductive years.

If there were a limitation to the amount of children that individuals could possibly conceive, or that if the release of ova was only released during sex – then we could surmise that sexual relations were specifically for procreation and that if sex was done without caution and with contraception, there would be a possibility of never having children if you expended all your ovum, or for the man to have expended all of his sperm prior to when they had planned their family.

I believe that GOD gives us intelligence and discernment to know when we our ready or not ready to become parents. That we have responsibility for our actions, and our bodies.

I have had 6 known pregnancies. Each of them difficult, 3 leading to my hemorrhaging, and one, almost to my death and the death of one of my children. Each time up until my last child, the [Catholic] hospital denied a tubal ligation even though I was told [by their doctors] that if I became pregnant again that it would be life-threatening and not to become pregnant again.

I am thankful for each of my children. I am also sickened that a hospital would deny a person a medical procedure that would ultimately save this person’s life, just because they believe that interfering with childbirth in any manner is wrong and in their authority to do so because of their religious basis.

Marriage, in the most original definition from Creation, and Biblical definition is when one man and woman are joined in the flesh. Meaning sexual intercourse. The New Testament specifies that we become married not to burn with lust. Not specifically PROCREATION, but for expression of love and receipt of the pleasure [within the commitment of (monogamous) marriage].

_________________
Genesis 2:24

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

1 Corinthians 7:2

But because of the temptation to impurity and to avoid immorality, let each [man] have his own wife and let each [woman] have her own husband.

1 Corinthians 7:9

But if they have not self-control (restraint of their passions) they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame [with passion and tortured continually with ungratified desire].

Proverbs 5:18

Let your fountain [of human life] be blessed [with the rewards of fidelity], and rejoice in the wife of your youth.

Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant doe [tender, gentle, attractive] – let her bosom satisfy you at all times, and always be transported with delight in her love.

The Song of Solomon is an homage to the romantic sexual/pleasureful nature of love between a man and woman.

There is even Scripture that signifies a man can marry a woman past the time of her reproductive years, and it would not be a sin.

If you go on further, you learn:

_________________
1 Corinthians 7:4-5

For the wife does not have [exclusive] authority and control over her own body, but the husband [has his rights]; likewise the husband does not have [exclusive] authority and control over his body, but the wife [has her rights].

Do not refuse and deprive and defraud each other [of your due marital rights], except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, so that you may devote yourselves unhindered to prayer. But afterwards resume marital relations, lest Satan tempt you [to sin] through your lack of restraint of sexual desire.
_________________

This has been an age old question, and it has been answered in Scripture Itself. Who are we, meaning specifically any religious denomination to tell men and women that sexual relations is only for the “consequence” of conception?

Is there anywhere in Scripture where GOD demands anyone to have a child/dren? When God gave the admonishment to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth…I believe the earth has been filled, and is being regenerated by those thoughtfully, lovingly, and willfully having children. Children are to be received as gifts from GOD, what if the ones capable of conceiving knowing in their own hearts they are incapable of honoring GOD’s gift?

If artificial contraception is considered interference with GOD’s creation and plan for us, wouldn’t medical interference with the deaf, mute, and those born with birth defects, be as well? The Bible was written in a time where modern innovations did not exist, so why is a denomination of Christianity deciding whom may use what innovation in accordance to the quality and quantity of life, and conception?

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:30:55 -0000

PreteristView — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:30:55 -0000

My apologies in contending…May it be revealed to you by other means.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:56:46 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:56:46 -0000

Whoa, what’s that supposed to mean? You have consistently throughout this site asserted your beliefs as true just like everyone else, and I don’t get to explain mine? Either I’m right, or I’m not, and if I’m right that Christ intended for there to be ONE Church preserved in Truth by HIS gift of the Holy Spirit, then that has consequences. Note also that the concept of CATHOLIC in the Church is much more expansive than you seem to be applying, and I’ve talked about it in various places throughout this site. You’re part of the catholic Church, though not in full communion with it. So is the unborn child, and so is the non-Christian lover of God, for they have come to the Father through the Word as He has been revealed to them in their lives.

Thank you for validating my previous statement…I will not attempt to dismantle your denomination with Scripture, however, it can be done as with all denominations of men.

My communion is in CHRIST, not a denomination of Christianity. CHRIST is the CHURCH, not Catholicism.

My Preterist beliefs are supported in Scripture, and regarding end time prophecy, it is not relevant to Salvation – however believing that CHRIST IS THE TRUTH, THE WAY, & THE LIFE and that everyone comes to the Heavenly FATHER, THROUGH HIM is the ONLY ABSOLUTE – and that any other gospel apart from it, is blasphemy.

And yet again, you bring up 1 Corinthians…I guess you are going to fixate upon the one verse out of the many that you have not found a glimpse of fallibility with? Again, my belief of the interpretation of Scripture does not change my treatment of others – I do not state that Preterism is the one true religion, because it isn’t relevant to Salvation, but is relevant as to what people believe must occur in this modern age, instead of focusing on the LOVE OF CHRIST toward their fellow man.

When you admit that it isn’t legislation that will end abortion, then you will have found the answer to abortion on demand. It is a greater understanding that I am asking you to seek out within your own heart, not what you feel you must fight against.

Good Night, Arandur. As you have stated previously, you do not have the ability to access Scripture as it pertains to your issues and Biblical knowledge, as you have stated with my presenting of Scripture and original language definitions, not a copy and pasting of someone else’s prefabbed outlines. I hope you will spend more time in the Word, and not in religious doctrines and creeds.

Our Faith is in GOD, Through CHRIST, and perpetuated with the HOLY SPIRIT, not religion or one specific denomination.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:37:22 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:37:22 -0000

“NO MAN is PERFECTLY ANYTHING” Agreed. Touche on the “splitting of atoms” and 46 chromosomes; we’re even. :)”

They are not one in the same. No man, according to Scripture is to reference themselves as being perfect in any manner. It’s addressing pride, not semantics. Your critical remark about 46 chromosomes was an attempt (with semantics) to chide me, on a point that actually supports your argument on behalf of life at conception.

“I have made very few exclusionary statements about interpretation of Scriptures, and I have explained both the reasons for the short quotations, and the meaning of those few that we appeared in disagreement about in their own context (the 1 Corinthians Ch2 one comes to mind). I don’t see how I’m taking “one aspect of GOD in Scripture and applying it to fit specifically [my] agenda as if [I] understand the Will of GOD completely;” especially not any more than you are. I don’t think either of us is, because we’re talking about our understandings of Scripture here.”

Your bringing up 1 Corinthians yet again? Why? Because I conceded that most Biblical scholars interpret as you do? How many times are you going to bring up this one perceived error to exercise a point of your justification, especially in a completely unrelated topic? And you wonder why you assume I am taking this personally? Maybe it is because you are going to lengths such as this, to bring up one area of which you believe you have found a flaw, but have yet to address the numerous other Scripture references that substantiate my belief adequately.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:56:43 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:56:43 -0000

I am in favor of ending the argument as well…You accuse me of doing the very things that you are doing to me in this discussion.

How many times do I have to state that I do not condone abortion, and only find fault with yours and other’s inability not to judge, condemn and sentence people whether it be through out of context Scripture references, or highlighted scientific/medical findings outside of the qualifying normative statistics, or saying that a child is consequence of another moral sin. Children are children, not the consequence of sin. Conception is the outcome of fertilization, it is not a curse upon women who lack chastity or a sentence to be carried out to birth.

If you really want to persuade people not to have an abortion, not to support the legalism of it – how about emphasizing how much GOD loves us beyond the point of conception?

Jesus Christ, and HIS LOVE is the ANSWER, not your feeble attempts to change secular law…And to fight abortion, when ONCE AGAIN, ABORTION IS A SYMPTOM OF A MUCH GREATER ISSUE.

You can’t expect to put a band-aid on a bleeding gushing wound. It is multiple steps to bring healing, not some activism to ease the consciousness of self-righteous judgment.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:34:13 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:34:13 -0000

“Why do you keep assuming things about me? Why do you keep thinking that I assume things about you? Stop making this so personal. I’m passionate about the issue and am responding to your arguments and what I know of you from your arguments.”

When someone makes repetitive statements that they believe that their religion is sovereign. That their religion is the one true religion, and that all others are self-fashioned or styled and out of the scope of God and Christendom – I think that cause for some personal concern.

I have assumed very little, but have been exacting in my addressment to the point of exhausting every issue as written in a literal sense, not inflecting what you may seem to be, or what you sound like, but what Scripture actually states in context and entirety.

I am very passionate about the souls that are in existence, who are beyond the age of accountability and in desperate need of GOD, and the Love of Christ, NOT RELIGIOUS LEGALISM.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:22:28 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:22:28 -0000

“I am perfectly consistent, however, because I recognize that God loves LIFE, and wants every person living on this earth to have a chance to live on this earth and come to know Him, that He alone rules death and sees it as an abomination when we take another human’s life! That life is good and we are not to allow it to be ended by another human being just because we feel certain that person will go to heaven.”

First of all, NO MAN is PERFECTLY ANYTHING…And secondly, do you understand that you make statements regarding Scripture in absolutes, and out of context. GOD has signified whom He has loved and whom He has hated [by comparison].

Life on this earth, IS SECONDARY, to the eternal life in the KINGDOM OF GOD!

Genesis 6:7

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

He made a covenant after that, but I am referencing this to show how taking one aspect of GOD in Scripture and applying it to fit specifically your agenda as if you understand the Will of GOD completely???

No man does, only what Scripture attests in Its entirety.

If you will read Scripture, GOD doesn’t love just any life; He loves His Creation – He loves and shows favor to the righteous. It has been evident in references to the likes of Cain, and Abel, and Jacob, and Esau and so on.

He loved the world, His Creation, that He gave Christ to save it – but the Gift of Salvation is a CHOICE.

And I am not saying that we have the right to have an abortion, or that it is justified, which you exceedingly ignore repeatedly – but that when a matter is currently out of authority, obviously by the sheer fact it is currently legal, that OUR FAITH IS IN GOD, not the law of the land, period and forever more.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:01:26 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:01:26 -0000

“Are you missing my many sentences referring to judgment and discernment, just as you’ve missed or ignored every time I agree with you about the love of Christ and instead think I am focusing only on laws?”

I don’t believe I have ignored anything. You have stated that you want for abortion to be illegal. That there should be consequences and punishments for those who have or perform abortions. That people shouldn’t use contraception. – Okay, now, what legislative measures have you stated that would implement the Love of Christ?

Please show me where you have given an outline of this, so I maybe corrected. And if you haven’t, then wouldn’t that actually be evident of your proclivity moreso toward legalism, than the Spiritual ministry of Christ?

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:48:05 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:48:05 -0000

Unless you can find a devout loving Christian to send into every home (since you don’t know who is even struggling with this often very secret issue), you’ll not save many lives now that way.

And if you cannot reach every unwanted child that would be brought into this world under the illegallization of abortion, how are you going in ensure his/her eternal Salvation? Can you? Are you saying that you would much rather allow a child to come into the world without any guarantee that they will not perish spiritually and eternally?

Why is it that you believe that the world we live in is so sick? Could it be all the individuals bringing children into the world raising them without the Love of God present in their lives? If Christians aren’t having abortions, but darkened hearts of non-believers are, then who are responsible for raising children with such darkened understanding?

We have read testimony from non-Christians who believe that abortion is murder and should be made illegal. ..Is it possible that “Christian” homes are raising such sick individuals, because the lack of GOD, and the Holy Spirit in their lives? Are they Christians so focused on legalism that they themselves are turning children into adults that turn their hearts away from GOD?

There is a greater moral dilemma in this country, and it isn’t abortion. Our focus should be directed elsewhere and that is what will deplete substantial numbers of abortion on demand, not the laws of the self-appointed few.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:32:50 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:32:50 -0000

“I am interested in saving lives.”

Saving lives, or saving souls? What about the lives that need GOD, and without HIM, lose their eternal life, instead of their physical life?

Now that you have saved that life, what next? Is saving the physical life going to guarantee the eternal life of this individual?

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:30:29 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:30:29 -0000

“I don’t know where you ever got that I was in favor of taking away peoples’ votes, since I speak so often about persuasion and working within the system.”

What type of persuasion? How will you overturn federal law within the system?

Are you willing to accept that when and if America is given the vote, that the vote is in favor of abortion? What then?

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:20:15 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:20:15 -0000

“And the argument of why have any laws then doesn’t apply when you consider that all other laws including the ones that are based upon the 10 commandments pertain to trespasses and offenses committed to existing and established life.” I’ve never seen that qualifier in Scripture. This sounds very sick to me, PV, because it sounds like you are now saying that unborn children aren’t worth as much as those that are born, and thus don’t have rights.”

No, you are reading way too much into it on the side of the negative. Do you realize how many times you state that it “seems” one particular way, or that it “sounds like” this or that? You are actually deriving very atrocious accusations that are NOT even present within the framework of my statements…But what you apply to them.

The first commandment, how do suggest as a government or to government, how they should or could they establish that as law? It meets the very criteria you substantiate as reasonable for making abortion illegal and punishable by law.

And it very obvious that you will not see past this EVER [at least at this juncture] – If the quality and value of existing and established life is so low, in comparison to saving the life of the unborn, and even more so, the desire to restrict people from choosing not to have children, then do you even realize the moral dilemma you are creating, or do you even care?

“What do you think would happen if 90% of Americans had been enough touched by love and Christ that they realized how heinous abortion was? Would they let it remain legal? What if 70%? What if 55%? We have to tend to a sick society, one that keeps passing more laws in favor of death. We must reverse the trend.”

If 90% of Americans had been or will be – Would it really make one iota difference if the law existed or not? – What would be the actual demand for abortion??? Less than 10%!!! What if that 10% was our actual government? And the focus would be sharing GOD’s LOVE, not overturning some secular law that people aren’t even choosing to exercise. Imagine, that is better than the saving Grace offered by GOD to Sodom and Gomorrah. Do you really think with that much love in America, that 10% would not be overcome or affected? And if not, do you really believe that you can wipe out all of evil in the America, or the world, either politically or Spiritually with a single law? Other than the one most important…[Love GOD], and Love your neighbor as yourself.

You stated it…We live in a sick world, and we are to be a light unto this dark world – do we do it with the flame of the candle to burn and punish, or are we do it with the glow to guide people toward GOD?

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:00:07 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:00:07 -0000

Arandur,

You really don’t grasp the concept of the legalization of abortion. It was a federal instatement/ruling. Our right to “vote” didn’t really apply to this particular advocacy…The only way, would be the ability to overturn the federal ruling and give the states the right to retain sovereignty on this issue. This is where I object to forcing everyone under law, from one small branch of government; you take away the vote from the people and set a dangerous precedence. GOD should govern Christians from within their hearts, not specifically what the laws of the land are at any one given time.

So, while you may argue on your soapbox, about how it is wrong, and that it is an offense against God and humanity, and that it should be against the law – you aren’t addressing the right people for your cause if you are trying to achieve it through political means. So while political means are set to be in motion, the LOVE of CHRIST should be the means of reaching the people who are faced with the actual issue of abortion. Telling them it is wrong isn’t alleviating why they either fear or believe they cannot bring a child into the world. And even before that, the Love of Christ shown through support and encouragement of self worth strengthens and prolongs abstinence at least if not until marriage, until there is something beyond lust

_________________
Romans 13:1

LET EVERY person be loyally subject to the governing (civil) authorities. For there is no authority except from God [by His permission, His sanction], and those that exist do so by God’s appointment.

Therefore he who resists and sets himself up against the authorities resists what God has appointed and arranged [in divine order]. And those who resist will bring down judgment upon themselves [receiving the penalty due them].

For civil authorities are not a terror to [people of] good conduct, but to [those of] bad behavior. Would you have no dread of him who is in authority? Then do what is right and you will receive his approval and commendation.

_________________
_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~ For people that obey GOD, doesn’t matter what secular laws are…Governed by a Higher Authority.

_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~
_________________

Acts 5:29

Then Peter and the apostles replied, We must obey GOD rather than men.

_________________
_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~~ We as Christians are governed by God. If a law of the land is against God then we ourselves do not find it permissible. We aren’t being forced to have abortions, we are given a choice. *

It is a constant with GOD, that we are given a choice. GOD put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden.*

He gives us that choice that we may CHOOSE LIFE…And regardless of any laws, it is simply and will always be a CHOICE.

_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~_~~
___________________

As for the 46 chromosomes, don’t go from splitting hairs to splitting atoms and genes as well. ;O)
There are more or less, but 46 is a biological standard of reference, not intellectual bias or omission.

Regarding your references of how to judge – you are not distinguishing between judgment and discernment. We are to have personal discernment of the Spirit to know what is good and what is evil, but it is not an authority that we as “Christians” take upon ourselves to govern non-believers. That is up to the secular government, which we in part have a vote, but so do the secular sects of our society.

In response to the rights of the unborn to live and come to know Christ…You make statements of my inconsistencies, what about yours? You use the verse to support your advocacy against abortion, that GOD knows us in our mothers’ womb and then in turn, don’t have the faith to know that if for whatever reason or purpose that we are not born, that we come to know Christ? See, you speak of flaws in my logic and in my Christianity but you do not see your own.

See, you think you know me…You believe my Christianity is flawed somehow – but actually my Faith in GOD is so strong, that I know no matter the outcome GOD is GOD, and whether it be the unborn, or the mentally challenged, or children under the age of accountability, that GOD is just and they are with HIM at the time of their physical death. It is the ones that have been born, that have want and need, and that lack for the LOVE of CHRIST to be shown to them, that their hearts be healed by HIM through us – Not dictated by some view of morality and laws because we find ourself self-righteously appointed by God to rule over them…

And while you made statements from the late Mother Teresa, and her outspokenness in regard to the “atrocity” of contraception and abortion – She herself was witness to great poverty, suffering, the abandonment of infants, starvation, terminal illnesses, and death. And to these, she did not address a political means to aid in the ending of such need, or changing their attitudes that would alleviate it, but advocated that more children should be conceived and born into a world/countries of suffering, hunger, and desperation. When Christ admonished to feed my sheep, to clothe, to care for, and to minister – they only prepared these people for imminent death and destruction, after they were born. What about saving those lives, the lives of the poor, the suffering, the ones unable to get medical care that would have sustained their lives?

There is a blindspot, inconsistency, and hypocrisy – but it isn’t before you in this debate/discussion, it is within the very statues you stand upon.

You can reason with a man’s intellect with laws, legalities and religious virtues – but you can only reach his heart with the Love of Christ. And only with the change of heart can you really and truly win on behalf of GOD, not mammon.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 07:51:59 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 07:51:59 -0000

Arandur,

You state that it “seems” that it is my blindspot; are you certain that it isn’t yours?

1. I have stated that I vote Pro-Life.

2. I have stated that I live Pro-Life – I have not ever had an abortion, I will not have an abortion, and I do not encourage or promote others to have an abortion.

3. I have no problem with individuals basing and voicing their opinions on their religious convictions, and referencing Scripture in proper context and in Its entirety to support their convictions.

4. I have no problem with stating statistical and scientific findings and information as it pertains to the issue, as well as in correlation with other legitimate normative statistics, not as a means of scare tactics or self-righteously implying that it is a means of punishment or a curse from God.

5. I have no problem with Christians, that when exercising the authority given to them, to apply their convictions by voting to implement governmental changes.

6. I take no issue with Christians and individuals who want to make changes based upon their moral convictions through proactive and supportive means, but not through the sole implementation of restrictive and condemnatory measures.

7. I defined life beginning at conception, with the possession of 46 chromosomes, that it is a fact that it is undeniably a developing human being.

You made a statement at the beginning of this thread, and I quote:

“Only modern equivocation and confusion in this culture of death has brought disunity to Christians on this point, but its an issue so important and so clear that I seriously question whether one can call oneself Christian if one is in favor of abortion.”

and then you make this point [in regard to me] specifically:

“This part of what seems to me to be your blindspot is that you will not admit that we as Christians are supposed to live in the world; though our lives and our obedience be not of the world, we must still take active part in the secular world. We do very much have the authority to argue in the public forum for government by God’s principles, to argue for what is true and good and oppose what is harmful and evil.”

Maybe it is just me and I am not reading you right, and definitely vice versa – but I think I have stated that we are to be in the world but not of the world, and that we are to enforce our convictions when given the means and the authority. Meaning that we ourselves do not set our moral standard by the world’s. Can we as Christians and/or as individuals force the world to be Christian? It is this very mindset that has led to the corruption of Christianity throughout the ages. We believe as Christians that we can force heathens, pagans, atheists, other religious denominations to believe as we do, and if they won’t believe the way we do, we will force them to obey religious/moral laws through legislating it???

In one breath you state that you believe that no one who supports abortion could call themselves a Christian and then in the next, inadvertently state that we must force even those who aren’t Christian [by willingly having and wanting the legal right to an abortion] aka so-called (even though you believe no one who supports abortion to be truly Christian anyway) as part of the family of Christ, to not be able to have an abortion and to be included in who you have the right to tell what is morally right and acceptable???

You asked questions in your previous post about why I limited forgiveness to showing remorse, I didn’t, I was directly referencing what the verse stated…Forgiveness doesn’t always bring reconciliation; I am completely aware of the different types of forgiveness.

You make statements of how the Bible gives you/Christians the right to be all inclusive when it comes to your/their moral judgment? You are putting the law before the love.

God created Adam and Eve – they lived in a perfect state. He put before them Life and death, and they chose death. God spoke through His angels, physical and audible signs, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Ezekiel, an ass, John The Baptist, Jesus, the Disciples & Prophets with miraculous powers and gifts – and yet you believe that making laws is going to stop individuals from choosing death over life? There my friend, is a blindspot.

I put my faith in the Almighty God, not laws, and legislation of this world – but in the world to come. I put my Hope in God, His Son Christ Jesus that my duty is to those that I come in contact with, the ones that are already in existence fighting for for their eternal Salvation and Life – and showing them the Love and Gospel of Christ, over the unborn innocence whose Salvation is intact at the moment of their conception and at throughout the time of their untimely death. And is only through ministering to these lives with the Love of Christ that will heal them, and they will be able to have families wherein the Love of Christ dwells and there will be less and less abortion.

For when we come into this world do our parents legislate and govern us? No, first they are to love us, and nurture us, feed us, clothe us, clean us, warm us, give us a home, teach us what is right and show us the joy they have when do good, and they prevent us from when we begin to do wrong – they show us the right way and tell us not to do what is wrong and tell us why, and then tell us if we do it again that there are consequences natural ones, physical ones, moral ones, authoritative ones. Even if we do wrong, they still love us, care for us, forgive us…And it is because of this love that they show to us that we love them, and respect them and honor them and obey them.

“And we love Him, because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19

Sadly, not all of us get such love right from the beginning and throughout that fulfills us and sets us on our path with God…So, for them laws aren’t going to keep them from doing these things such as abortion – because they need the essentials of what they didn’t receive in the formative years of their lives and what they aren’t even getting at this point in their life that they find themselves facing premarital sexual relations and an unwanted pregnancy.

Christians are failing tremendously if they feel that the illegalization of anything is the cure, especially when it comes to the very legislation that has put them in affect. And the argument of why have any laws then doesn’t apply when you consider that all other laws including the ones that are based upon the 10 commandments pertain to trespasses and offenses committed to existing and established life.

You are so headstrong on laws and regulations, actions and consequences – that you don’t see that it isn’t laws, it’s love that is needed, and we don’t need government legislation to implement that, but they could implement more humanitarian programs to meet the needs of those that live right here and right now, and if the churches would go back to helping the needy and ministering to those in true want instead of building monuments, crosses, and taking European Bible trips…They would do as Christ admonished and show the lost His Love. No one who has the Love of Christ would willing choose to have an abortion, so you don’t need to give them laws, you need to give them love, and through loving Him, we submit to Him and His Laws.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 01:29:09 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 01:29:09 -0000

Arandur,

You are missing something very crucial in the points I have been making. How do you reach an immoral world that is willingly not governed by the Word of God? By laws, and punishment? By judgment and condemnation?

Jesus dealt harshly with the Pharisees, not with sinners. He dealt sternly with His disciples. How did He instruct us [Christians] to deal with unbelievers?

I wasn’t stating that Christ was condoning adultery, but thank you for trying to make it out as if I was – What I am saying is, if Christ did not condemn her to punishment why should we as Christians? You seem to not be able to separate the world, and the ways of the world with Christendom. In the times of Christ they had crucifixion, kings slaughtered infants and newborns; was Christ out speaking to the kings, and legislators of the time? No, He was speaking to hearts of sinners. Was He out making laws? He spoke about consequences to His followers, but they first came to Him in Faith and in Love.

Matthew 7:1-5

Judge NOT – meaning to condemn and pass sentence or punishment

John 7:14 ( I think you mean verse 24 not 14)

Judge NOT – meaning to condemn and pass sentence or punishment (Jesus spoke of their judging Him for breaking the law of the Sabbath when He healed a man.

Luke 12:57

Judge – meaning as in to discern and to distinguish, to decide – and this reference of judging is for personal application if you do a study of the context.

Psalm 37:30

Judge – in this context – Justice, favorable or unfavorable. Not judging as in ruling of condemnation, but in rightful fairness.

Proverbs 31:19

Judge – Again this is speaking in regard to authority…Administering authority over those who cannot…In this instance the poor and the needy, the dumb.

Luke 17:3

Again – in this instance it is referring to authority and how to handle other members of the Faith not the world…And regardless of how many times he sinned against him, if he showed remorse to forgive him.

Isaiah 58:1

AGAIN : MY people – speaking of BELIEVERS in the FAITH, not the worldly.

Ezekiel 22:2 & 23:36

Judge – this was spoken directly to Ezekiel. It was in regard to his authority given to him by God over the Israelites (those of the Faith) that turned away and turned to false idols and became like the heathen nations.

1 Corinthians 2:15; 6:2-3

Arandur, you omitted a very crucial part of that verse, and I do not believe it was by any accident, because it makes a distinction between the Spiritual and the earthly.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Judge meaning examining, investigating, inquiring, and discerning all matter spiritual and yet no one can understand and discern what is within him.

Then in going to chapter 6:2-; They are speaking about the heavenly realm, and Spiritual matters. If you read past what you have quoted, it is speaking about why do we as Christians rely on worldly judges to decide upon matters between the brotherhood – We aren’t to bring legal action, and trivialities before judges of the world. He is admonishing them on how to deal with each other [BELIEVERS] not involving the world [GENTILES].

Leviticus 19:15

For someone who corrected me previously about referencing Scripture with adherence to Old Covenant laws, I am uncertain why you are referencing so much of it now, in regard to Judgment.

Judgment in this verse pertains to BELIEVERS. Throughout “your people” “My people” – referencing believers, not the world.

You will not reach the world through judgment, condemnation, legislation – but with the Love of Christ, period. We as Christians know what the moral statutes are, and we are under the authority to obey, and admonish other Christians but we have no authority over non-believers. Non-believer are to be won over with the Love and Gospel of Christ, not laws, judgment, condemnation, and punishment.

Psalm 119:13

I like the verse when taken in the context of the chapter.

Verse 19 I am a stranger and a temporary resident on the earth; hide not Your commandments from me.

And if you read further in the context of Scripture, it make the distinction between believers and non-believers.

Verse 83-85

For I have become like a bottle [a wineskin blackened and shriveled] in the smoke [in which it hangs], yet do I not forget Your statutes.

How many are the days of Your servant [which he must endure]? When will You judge those who pursue and persecute me?

The godless and arrogant have dug pitfalls for me, men who do not conform to Your law.

Revelation.. replied by PreteristView @ Wed, 02 Jan 2008 22:40:11 -0000

PreteristView — Wed, 02 Jan 2008 22:40:11 -0000

I still believe that the promises Christ made to His contemporaries and to that generation were fulfilled just as He said they were going to be.

I am still not entirely convinced that the revelation and vision he referenced were not about John. If you read the entire chapter, he goes on about his weaknesses and infirmities – it seems disjointed for he himself not to know details of his own vision and experience.

As for the rest…I haven’t heard any argument, as to why there is evidence for the prophecies of Revelation already being fulfilled.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Wed, 02 Jan 2008 22:23:32 -0000

PreteristView — Wed, 02 Jan 2008 22:23:32 -0000

““Abortion isn’t evil – evil was/is at its source.” I’m unsure what you’re trying to say here. Some acts are inherently evil, such as murder. One’s culpability depends on many things, but abortion itself is an evil act. Again, we’re talking about actions, not people.”

The first murder stemmed from what? The act of murder was fueled by something else.

It’s not the act, if you are adhering to the Truth of Christ. It is what is in the heart of a man that makes him unclean, not the act…And from the abundance of that heart overflows and becomes words and actions.

I think that the Scripture were Christ intervenes with the stoning of the adulteress woman sums it up. “He who is without sin cast the first stone.” The law of the land was to stone to death an adulteress woman. The punishment/consequence was murder. As Christians when we speak of punishment, laws and consequences we are condemning, judging & punishing.

You believe that it is me, that doesn’t get it…I get it. There are those that obey the law, and then there are those that are guided by the Holy Spirit out of love. Just because someone doesn’t break a law, doesn’t mean they are governed by the Holy Spirit – Just as someone that breaks the law isn’t necessarily condemned and judged.

Here is an example of a Christian couple that of which they could not see their shame.

They were pro-life, and they wanted a child so badly. They had not been able to conceive on their own. They knew a teenage girl related to a family member at their church, that was pregnant. They convinced her not to have an abortion. They paid for all the girl’s prenatal care…They signed as guarantor at the hospital when the girl went into labor. And for reasons beyond my comprehension, refused to adopt the infant when they discovered upon the delivery that the child was not Caucasian. The little girl was adopted by another family, not a church going family.

This is just one example of how people can be so self-righteous or follow the law, but not be guided by the Holy Spirit, as evident in their biasness, and bigotry.

Recent Posts by PreteristView | GOD STILL LOVES US

I Believe in Preterism replied by PreteristView @ Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:12:02 -0000

I Believe in Preterism replied by PreteristView @ Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:07:04 -0000

I Believe in Preterism replied by PreteristView @ Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:05:30 -0000

I Believe in Preterism replied by PreteristView @ Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:02:17 -0000

FAVORITE IMAGE replied by PreteristView @ Sun, 06 Jan 2008 20:42:47 -0000

Catholicism replied by PreteristView @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:52:59 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:50:57 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:36:42 -0000

Catholicism replied by PreteristView @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:07:25 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:30:55 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:56:46 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:37:22 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:56:43 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:34:13 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:22:28 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:01:26 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:48:05 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:32:50 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:30:29 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:20:15 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:00:07 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 07:51:59 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 01:29:09 -0000

Revelation.. replied by PreteristView @ Wed, 02 Jan 2008 22:40:11 -0000

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Wed, 02 Jan 2008 22:23:32 -0000